Power up your workday

Reach your goals faster with time tracking and work management.

Try Hubstaff
power up with Hubstaff


In this episode, I’m talking with Jake Jorgovan of Outbound Creative. I had Jake on the podcast almost a year ago. At that time he was focused primarily on using “eye catching outreach” like messages in a bottle or hollowed-out books to help his clients close deals. He was also ramping up his team.

Since then, Jake has taken stock of what he actually wants to get out of his agency, scaled down his team, and refocused his offering. Today, Outbound Creative helps consulting clients win their dream clients through personalized outreach campaigns. And what used to be a team of 12 is now a team of two.

Today, Jake shares how to decide what your real goals for your agency are, the system to help you achieve it, and how he is implementing it himself. If you’ve been focused on growth at all costs with your agency business without taking time to reflect, this is the episode for you.

Grab the transcript of my interview with Jake.

Key Takeaways

Determine objectives for your agency business

When you’re running a growing agency business, it’s easy to get caught up in headcount without taking a step back and asking yourself why.

Some people truly enjoy building and managing large teams and wouldn’t be fulfilled without that. Others just want to take a shot at building something big and making as much money as they can along the way.

If that’s what you want to do, more power to you. Just make sure you take the time to figure out what you want so you can be deliberate about building your business.

For Jake, this meant scaling back his team and moving upmarket. This way he could still earn a good living but do so on his own terms. He wants to travel and doesn’t want the responsibility of managing a full team of people. Outbound Creative’s new structure accomplishes this for him.

How to achieve the agency business of your dreams

According to Jake, the first step to building the agency business of your dreams is figuring out your organization’s big picture goals.

Do you want to be a thought leader? Do you want to sell your business? Do you want to be number one in your market? Then break that big goal into an annual goal. Figure out what your major plan is, then break off a chunk of that to focus on this year.

Next, decide what tactics you’ll use to achieve those goals. Are you reaching out on social media, with physical mailings or blog posts? Decide what will work best for you to achieve your annual goal.

Finally, choose what three tactics you’ll focus on. Jake picks three specifically because it means you can make sure you’re moving forward with your goals without overwhelming yourself.

Two goals should be ongoing, like producing a podcast or creating vlogs. One goal should be a shorter term project, like writing an ebook. If you decide you want to work on something else, like writing a blog, pause one of your projects. That way, you make sure you’re always giving 100 percent to your work.

How Jake does this at Outbound Creative

Jake doesn’t just suggest this approach. He uses it in his own business. He has two ongoing projects: his podcast, and his blog and newsletter. His shorter term project is writing a book.

Although Jake has a lot of other interests and ideas, restricting himself to three projects at a time means he gets the best out of each tactic. His podcast allows him to create strategic partnerships and drive leads, and his blog gives him another source of clients.

Because he isn’t constantly jumping from project to project, he can focus on writing the book and get a draft done so he can try out something else.


Andy Baldacci: Jake. Thanks so much for calling on the show today.


Jake Jorgovan: Thanks for having me on here Andy.


Andy Baldacci:







You were here almost a year ago when Outbound Creative, your agency, was focused primarily on eye-catching outreach campaigns, you had a full time employee in the city to handle all the packaging delivery, that sort of stuff. You were talking about hiring a few people to help scale up the agency and also a new project you were working on called Prospect Scout, but talking to you since then, I know you’ve adjusted your priorities a bit. Why don’t we just start by sharing with listeners how and why you’ve reshaped Outbound Creative since they last heard from you?


Jake Jorgovan:











This is something that I’ve learned I think twice now in my career, is that a lot of people get hooked on the book Built to Sell, the whole idea of scaling up their agency into something bigger, making it run without them. I’ve tried this twice now in my life and every time I try this, I just hate it. I’ve come to realize that that is one method of taking your agency one way you can grow with it, but for me, what I really enjoy is being a consultant. I really enjoy doing the creative work and helping people. Instead of growing by scaling and removing myself from the business, I’ve made the decision to basically grow by scaling up the types of clients I work with, scaling up the capacities in which I work with clients at different tiers of engagement, and really make Outbound Creative more of my consultancy that focuses on helping other agencies and consultants get more business as opposed to trying to scale it into something bigger.


Andy Baldacci: Interesting. Today what does Outbound Creative look like? Is it just you? Do you have VAs? How is it structured today?


Jake Jorgovan:









At one point last year I had probably eight people that were on my stand up calls. They were a various mixture. I had a one full time employee and I had a bunch of contractors, and I basically phased out everyone down to where I have my full time employee who basically helps me with everything, and then I have really just about a few contractors for random services here and there, but I’ve phased almost everybody else out. While last year I was taking on 12 clients at a time and we had all these different people involved in trying to help them, it’s really now been more focused on working with a small number of higher paying clients and really getting deep with them, helping them with the active outreach and just helping them with new clients, doing everything we can there so going a lot deeper with fewer clients at a much higher price point. We’re also entering in some coaching and some other kind of services that are less hands on, but I can still bring my consulting and expertise to other businesses.



Andy Baldacci:


Are you yourself more hands on with this than you were say at the beginning of 2016?


Jake Jorgovan:





I would say I am still just as hands on. As the business scaled up last year, I was less hands on for a point of it and it just started to get out of my control, and the results started to wane for some of my clients and not produce as well because I’m not the built to sell kind of person. There’s some people that see everything as a systems mindset and they can look at that and optimize and tweak and focus, but for me what I’ve really found is whenever I’m engaged one-on-one with a client, helping them, talking through their situation, figuring out how to get them more business, that’s where I’m able to really generate more results. Yeah, it’s a lot more of just me now verse trying to sell the process.


Andy Baldacci:


Because it seems like there’s a couple of way of looking at the agency. It’s that when you were saying when you scaled out and maybe quality wasn’t as high, things were falling through the cracks, a fire would pop up here or there. There’s one way of looking at it from a systems mindset so it’s like all right, I need to go in, build processes, build up systems to prevent this from happening again, to improve our quality, to improve our standards, all of that. Then there’s the other mindset which it seems like you’re coming from where you can just look at it and say, “When I’m doing this myself, I’m less stressed and we don’t have these issues. Why don’t I just do most of this myself?”



Jake Jorgovan:













There’s so much of a stigma to just saying, “I’m just going to be a really highly paid consultant,” or, “I’m going to just work with a small number of high value clients.” Everyone’s saying, “Grow, grow, grow [inaudible 00:04:45],” but one of the things, I interviewed Aaron Ross of Predictable Revenue on my podcast and it was just incredible because he makes over a million dollars a year in personal income. When I asked him how he got to that, it wasn’t from scaling up his companies to the point where all of it’s running without him. He does have some lower tiered offering where he does train some people, but a majority of where it comes from is for him doing bigger and bigger consulting engagements with bigger clients over time, getting more value from those and more income from those. Just seeing his model of how he was able to grow his lifestyle, grow his income and he does this all with I think 11 kids and working 30 hours a week.


Andy Baldacci:






Yeah, I listened to that interview you did with him and I was just blown away. I can’t imagine how he’s made this work, but he has. It’s clear for him at least that it almost like he had started with the constraints like okay I’m only going to spend 30 to 40 hours a week on work and that’s it. I’m going to keep adopting kids, I’m going to keep growing my family, that’s going to increase my expenses, I’m going to have to provide for this and that so this is a problem set, let me figure out how to make more money within this time period. He’s kind of solved that problem.


Jake Jorgovan: Yeah, and it’s just interesting that the way he did it wasn’t by necessarily systematizing and growing and taking on tons and tons of clients. That interview and everything was just like an inspiration for me in a lot of ways to realize yeah, I should just step back and own this and just do what I’m great at which is helping businesses get more clients.



Andy Baldacci:









I think that last sentence that you just said, “Helping businesses get more clients,” ties into this next question because the other thing I wanted to ask about was, it seemed like to me as an outsider at the beginning of the year, you were focused at Outbound Creative almost exclusively on eye-catching outbound. Even if you offered other services, the website was all structured around that. If I look at your site today and if I look at what you’re actually offering your clients now, that just seems to be one component. Can you talk to how you shifted focus away from just that one offering to now a wider offering today?


Jake Jorgovan:












One of the biggest things I learned early on is when I started Outbound Creative, and as we talked about in the last interview, at the time I was focused on using really eye-catching physical mailers to win large accounts by doing things like hollowing out vintage books and putting messages in there and mailing it to people, or the sending a message in a bottle. I even sent Donald Trump piñatas at one point in time, lots of fun stuff like that. That was actually probably spent I would say six to eight months where that was still the primary focus, but what I eventually learned is that that is one tactic for winning new business. That is one way to get new clients and ultimately that’s not always the best way or the most cost effective way for some people to get clients. What I realized was that people were coming to me, not because just they wanted cool physical mailers which we can do, but they were coming to me because they wanted more clients. They wanted the end result.














When I started to realize that, I basically started to realize that that was the core pain point, that all these agencies, all these consultants had was how do we get more clients? I started to shift toward less of these physical packages, these eye-catching outreach, and I started to just start with the client and say, “Okay. What are you trying to achieve? What’s your goals for your business?” Figure out what their objectives are, what they’re trying to do and then I would look at the whole gambit of tactics, what is everything that they could be using? Should they be podcasting? Should they be blogging? Should they be doing cold emails? Should they be trying to get speaking engagements? All of these different tactics, there’s tons of them. Then I would say, “Okay. This is what’s right for you. This is the tactics that make the most sense. It’s the lowest time, lowest cost investment that’s going to produce you the highest results as quickly as possible.”


That’s kind of been the big shift this year, and again as it started to move back toward me as a consultant, that’s where I’m working with a lot of my clients, is not to just say, “Here, use this tactic,” it’s to say, “okay. What are you trying to achieve? Let’s look at all the tactics that are available to you and figure out what’s the best fit. What’s going to give you the best return on investment?”


Andy Baldacci: It’s a much more consultative approach?



Jake Jorgovan:








Yeah, much more consultative and again, what I found is that so many of the agencies that I come in contact with, they are starting from the tactics. They read some blog post somewhere or listen to an online course or a podcast about something that worked, and they get really excited about it and they just jump into it without really thinking about is this the right fit for me? Typically what that leads to is either using a tactic that’s not a right fit for them, or starting a bunch of tactics and never finishing them because they just did it on a whim of inspiration from some piece of content they consumed somewhere. Trying very much to get more strategic with my clients on the front end and then actually help those clients implement that in an ongoing capacity as well.


Andy Baldacci:








I mean I’m on board with everything you’re saying. If you’re selling on features, if you’re selling on tactics, one, that’s not what they care about and two, price wise you’re almost commoditizing what you do and not focusing on the value which is getting more clients, but at the same time, do you find it harder to now stand out? It seems like you’re now competing with a lot of other agencies out there that help other agencies get more clients whereas before, it was like you were in your own little niche, you were the guy to go to for the eye-catching outbound. Now how are you standing out from the crowd?


Jake Jorgovan:










The interesting thing that I found is that I think people say, “Find your niche.” In some ways I think that’s almost a little overemphasized in some ways. I think it’s good and when I had the eye-catching outreach thing it was a niche, but the thing is that if you look at the goal here, I’m not trying to be the top leader of some category that I create and build some big business in that. I’m trying to accomplish the goals that I have, which for this year is to generate over 125,000 of personal income and 225 of revenue. When I look at accomplishing those goals for myself, I don’t need to be a category or a stand-alone. Instead, what you can do is I can look and say, “Okay. I know that if I consistently do more podcasting, that’s going to generate more relationships and that’s going to generate more potentials for work with other clients.”






That is one of the tactics that I’ve found personally that’s helped me quite a bit. Then I still have the niche in outreach. Outbound Creative, outreach is like a big part of the ultimate offering we do so it’s still a somewhat niche down there, but I guess the point that I’m getting as is that some people will hammer down on the niche but that’s not as important as just getting the opportunities. Yeah, the niching and the positioning is important to get there, but if you can just ensure that you generate the opportunities, that’s the important part if that’s going to get you toward your goals.


Andy Baldacci: Do you think you’re in a unique position because you have so much experience generating those opportunities?


Jake Jorgovan:








I think it helps because I study this all the time. Literally even with the upcoming book I’m writing, every single time I talk with an agency, every time I have any sort of sales call, with all my podcasts I ask every single client “How do you get more business?” Every single agency and consultant I ask them “How do you get more clients?” Through basically all those questions, I’ve learned a lot of different tactics and I’ve learned a lot of different ways that people approach it, but I think learning all that, having all that experience is one aspect of it. I think the harder part is actually the implementation and just staying focused. That’s I think where a lot of people do struggle and fail is that they just flail around and they’re just doing whatever tactic’s in front of them, verse I think what’s helped me grow was just being able to stay focused on the specific tactics that I know are working.



Andy Baldacci:








Because from my perspective it seems like a lot of times when you hear the niching down advice, it’s often advice given to consultants or agency owners who are frankly they’re struggling to grow, they’re struggling to find those clients. In my opinion, if that’s the position you’re in, narrowing down will make it easier for you because it just makes it very clear what you have to do and who you’re speaking to and it just simplifies your decisions. But the alternative is just double down on learning how to sell regardless of your niche. I think you are in a position where you’re able to do that very well, but it’s through self studies, through learning, it’s through trial and error. If others can put in that consistent effort to get there, it’s something that they can achieve as well.


Jake Jorgovan:









Yeah, and I will say that I guess the niching conversation, it is valid to a point. If you look, I am niched, I work with agencies and consultants which is very broad still. I’ve had so many people tell me, “Oh you need to niche to only working with software development or only digital marketing agencies or conversion rate,” and that’s where people take it too far. It’s like when I eliminated working with e-commerce stores, that helped because I was definitely out of my element there when I was doing marketing for them. It’s like niching down to a point is good because it limits it, but I think some people take that conversation way too far. There was some woman who emailed me the other day saying she was only going to do case studies for IT companies and I was like that’s a little too narrow.


Andy Baldacci: You’re niching on two different dimensions there with the case studies and then the market.


Jake Jorgovan: Yeah. It’s just not taking it too far I think is the main point. I want to hit home with that I guess.


Andy Baldacci:




You’ve mentioned about how you were doing all this research, not even for a specific purpose, but I know this is something that’s interesting you. You were asking all the agencies that you run into, how they get their clients and I know that now you are going to be doing something with that research and it’s a book you’re putting out. Parts you were saying here before, well the first part in the first half of 2017 and hopefully by the end you’ll get the second part out, but can you talk about what this book project is?


Jake Jorgovan:










This again all kind of came through all the podcast interviews I’ve done and every time I’ve talked to any sort of agency, any time I have a initial call with someone, the question I ask every agency or consultant I come across is basically, “How do you get new clients?” Because I think that’s one of the biggest questions that everyone has. It’s what everyone is trying to figure out. I just started to come across so many interesting answers to that question and a lot of trends where I started to see a lot of people that were doing the same thing or saw success in similar ways. I basically just started to keep a swipe file over about the past eight to nine months of just every time I answer that question, went back through every single podcast interview I had done, and started to look at all of the different ways that I was seeing these different agencies and consultancies get new work.












That’s what basically became, where the idea came for the book which is going to be called Win Your Dream Clients, is to basically take all of those tactics, put them in a book, give the stories to inspire people with all the potential ways they can go, the different tactics they can use for their business. That is the big picture book that I’m going toward, and if anyone’s ever read Traction by Gabriel Weinberg, it’s a really great book but it’s kind of focused for the start-up community. What I’m really trying to create is a similar book for agencies and consultings where you basically have all of the tactics listed that you can use to grow, then I’m trying on the front end of that, provide a framework for how to actually choose the tactics that are a right fit, how to stay focused on them, how to eliminate the bad ones, how to replace them with good ones, and over time figure out what are the right tactics for you to grow your business and to get new clients.


Andy Baldacci:



As much as we want to say the tactics are the important thing, the tactics are what people care about, it’s funny because when it comes to putting content out there, people love reading about more and more tactics. That being said though, there is value there, but it seems like to me where a lot of agencies are really going to get their value is from that framework upfront, because if you just try to pick up a dozen different tactics, even half a dozen tactics, even three tactics without a real way of how to apply them, how to test, how to improve, it is very unlikely that they’re going to succeed. I’m curious here if you can dive into a little bit what that framework looks like.



Jake Jorgovan:







The book, the end result is this physical piece of paper that sits on your desk and it is actually a one page tool to help you guide the strategy of your business. Basically, the first chunk of it is the objectives and it’s so figuring out what are the big picture goals that your trying to achieve? Are you wanting to become a top thought leader in the industry? Are you wanting to sell your business some day? Are you wanting to be number one in your certain market? What’s the big picture long term for your business? Then list out the annual goals, what are you going to try to accomplish this year? That’s the first part and everything ties back to these objectives.











This is one of the big differences between Gabriel Weinberg’s book Traction where start-ups are all about grow, grow, grow. I’ve added this objectives section in here because sometimes those objectives are I want to work 30 hours a week, or I want to be able to take two months off a year. That’s where I’m taking it as to like a list out what the objectives are, what you’re trying to get to in your business and then basically from there, you start to brainstorm all of the tactics that are going to help you actually achieve those objectives. What is every blog post you’ve read that’s inspired you? Every idea, whether you want to do LinkedIn, you want to do physical mailers, blogging, whatever it is, what are all of the tactics that are going to work for you and get you toward those key objectives?





Then what we have basically is along the bottom, you have an area for what I call three focus tactics. These are basically post-it notes that go on to the sheet and the whole thing is that you can only work on three tactics at any given point in time. Typically two of those should be ongoing things so if you’re podcasting, that’s an ongoing tactic, if you’re blogging, that could be an ongoing tactic. Then one of them is a project and so maybe your project’s writing case studies or it’s reworking your homepage or it’s writing your e-book or something like that. The thing is you can only work on three, and if you want to work on something new you have to remove or pause one of the others and take it off there.


[00:21:30] I’ve come to this after doing all this consulting with these different clients and seeing the problem that so many people had where they would start working on their website, their case studies, they’d start all these different things and they would never finish them. What I’ve tried to do here is just create a simple framework to keep you focused, and then to chose the tactics that are actually going to achieve the objectives that you want for your personal life and your business.



Andy Baldacci:








Interesting. The way you lay it out makes perfect sense to me and it’s a trap I fall into plenty of times where I will read different blog posts, books, listen to people, talk to people whatever and just have so many different ideas. You want to do anything, you get started on something and then you run into the next idea and you get started on that because you’re really excited by it. Then you’re trying to juggle so many different things that it’s really hard to make progress. I liked how you said it’s limited to those three core tactics and projects and all of that, but then if you want to add something new you have to swap something else out, because it’s just dividing your attention like that is just not a recipe for success.


Jake Jorgovan:





Heres the thing, to give you an example in real world practice. Yesterday I had a conversation with a guy that was telling me how he got involved with the American Marketing Association. He got a board member’s position at his local chapter and he’s been involved with that for five years. He’s like, “Man, it’s like 40 percent of my business comes from that.” I was like, “That’s awesome. I should totally get involved with an association in the next year or whenever I get back to the States.” Then I was like okay, that’s a cool idea, but I don’t need to research that, I don’t need to start thinking about that, I just wrote it down as another potential tactic on the tactics section of my sheet, and then whenever I’m done with my current ones that I’m focusing on or the current project, I can look at that.


[00:23:30] When I do decide to go in and start getting involved or do something there, that might mean pausing the podcast or pausing the blog or something like that for a while, but its just using that as almost place to store your ideas but you don’t have to act on them. That’s the thing, I think most people because they don’t store them anywhere, they feel like they have to act on them or they’re going to lose them, and so it gives you a place to keep all those backlogged and use them as you have time and as you finish the other ones that are the more important priorities.


Andy Baldacci: Right, it’s not actually true that if you don’t use it you’ll lose it?



Jake Jorgovan:


You might forget it, but this will prevent you from forgetting it.


Andy Baldacci: I’m curious, what are your three focuses right now at Outbound Creative?


Jake Jorgovan:




The three that I have right now, I have two ongoing and then the one project tactic. My ongoing tactics, the first main one is podcast interviewing. This is another thing that throughout the book I talk about basically analyzing all of your past sales to figure out where they actually came from. What I’ve found is that 60 percent of my business was coming in some way as a result of my podcasts. I actually just put out a blog post on this today called Grow Your Agency Through Podcast Networking, and it was almost all as a result of the networking that was happening through podcasting.


Andy Baldacci: Not even directly from the audience really, it was from all the relationships you built in building up the podcast.



Jake Jorgovan:








Yeah. There was definitely some that came through the audience so that was the other thing. This channel was pulling in new business in two different ways where the audience was coming as potential clients and then I was also getting referred or even guests of the podcast would end up hiring me. That’s one thing that I analyzed though my past wins has been one of the most effective tactics. The interesting thing is that whenever I actually did this analysis, I have had my podcast paused for about four months at the time. It’s one of those things where I was focused on all these other tactics and I had as a result, put aside the one tactic that was working the best for me. Out of that, also I include as that one, also strategic partnerships because that’s what I think a lot of the podcasts turn into is some sort of strategic relationship or partnership as well.










Then the other ongoing tactic is I’ve been ramping up my blog at jake-jorgovan.com again and getting my newsletter which I also let go dormant for a while, so that’s been another ongoing tactic. Then the last one is, right now my big project is actually writing this book and so I’ve got a ton of other things I want to dive into, but I’m basically focused on getting this book written and the craziest thing is, because I’m not distracted by all these others, I’m getting this book written very, very quickly. I’m not jumping around all these different projects or juggling things so I’ll be done with that soon. Then I can actually start to go on into work on some other different tactics that I’ve been wanting to have on the back-burner as well.


Andy Baldacci: I remember you first mentioned starting this book a couple of months ago almost I feel like.


Jake Jorgovan:


It sat on the back-burner for a while, was just waiting until I felt I had enough learnings from it, enough conversations with people, and it was around early December that I just did a weekend retreat to go just crunch down and get started on it and just wrote all weekend. As a result of that, basically kind of jump started everything and I should have it done here very shortly.


Andy Baldacci:



Nice. I know this almost goes against everything you just said about being distracted by things you’re not currently at work on, but that’s okay, it’s my podcast so I’m still going to ask. Once you do finish the book, how is this going to fit into your ongoing tactics and your other outbound efforts?


Jake Jorgovan:




The other thing I guess to explain this book even more in the frame to the context, is that my objectives, my goals, big picture, is that I want to be a top thought leader in the industry for agencies and consultants. If you’re familiar with Blair Enns, I have distinguished myself as I want to be Blair status is how I refer to it because think he is one of the top leaders in this space. He’s been doing this for so long, he has such an incredible insight to knowledge to say and so that’s the level that I want to get to.






This book is a first piece of really cornerstone content that I can have and use for years and years to come and to build on top of. That’s why I’ve basically been putting all the time and energy into this initially. It’s because it’s actually going to get me toward these objectives that I want to go and it’s going to position me in a better spot and move me toward becoming a thought leader, and also becoming more of a consultant with clients and not just always doing the outreach or anything like that. It’s kind of a positioning play as well.


Andy Baldacci:



Interesting. Do you see this as something that, once it’s published, once it’s out there because you said you’re going to publish it in parts and eventually the goal is to get it up on Amazon, get it a physical book that people can read through. I want to get a little into the nitty gritty, is this something you’re going to mail to people as part of some of these campaigns? Is that in the cards?


Jake Jorgovan:



It definitely is. I’m speaking at a conference in May, the How Design conference. I’ll be speaking to 500 people there and so I’ll only have the first section of the book done at that point, but I’m planning on printing, doing booklets of that first half of it and literally giving it to everyone there. Literally the idea you were talking about with even just getting everyone who’s story is told in the book onboard, I’ll probably mail physical copies to everyone who is in the books, earmarked for their specific sections that they’re in and everything. Even with new potential clients, use that for outreach as well.



Andy Baldacci:


For the people who are in the book, you could even send them a couple extra so they can give it out and say, “Hey, I’m in a book,” so they can give it out to other people.


Jake Jorgovan: This is good Andy. I should be paying you.


Andy Baldacci:





It’s funny. I was talking with Gene Hammett who helps agency owners grow through speaking, and one of the big things he’s working on is also publishing a book because at a certain level of conference that you’re getting into, it’s almost expected that you have a book. While you obviously want the book to be high quality, it’s just the fact that you have a book will help open doors up if you really are looking to cultivate that authority.


Jake Jorgovan:






That’s very true and I’ve known that for a long time, and so this book has been a back-burner project for me for almost about a year and a half. The thing that I vowed not to do was to write a book that was just for the sake of writing a book. I’ve literally held off on this for a year and a half until I felt to the point where I said, “I have something profound to say that the world needs to hear, that I think is going to help people and I don’t know of another source I can point people to that accomplishes this.” It is true that a book goes a long way in terms of helping you as a thought leader and get yourself out there for speaking engagements, all sorts of things like that.


Andy Baldacci: I’m curious, so I’m looking at the page for the book and just looking at some of the description of it. It says you’ve interviewed over 300 agency owners and consultants. All aren’t though the podcast are they?



Jake Jorgovan:


No they’re definitely not, and that’s where I’ll say with those interviews I count every discovery call I have with potential clients or clients I sign as those as well, because again through my own marketing I probably get four to five leads a week. Every week I’m having conversations with different agencies and there’s some that they’re not a right fit to hire me, but I still learn a tremendous amount from these calls.










To give you an example, I spoke with a UX design agency about six months ago and they ended up not hiring me, but on the calls, just learning about what works for them, how they’ve gotten their past clients they said, “Well we didn’t really know what to do so we just went out and we started applying to jobs as the two founders of the company, and whenever we actually got to the interview stage or whenever they started actually asking us, we just told them we’re not available for full time hire, but we’d happily help you on contract.” Out of that they started to win some really big retainers like five, 7000 dollar a month retainers which were for a small boutique UX agency was really good.







I learned this from just a discovery call and then I ended up taking that same tactic, implementing it for one of the UX agencies I work with, and we saw success, got them initially about a 5000 dollar a month project that’s been ongoing as a result of that exact same tactic that I learned from that call. A lot of them are on my podcast Working Without Pants, but a lot of them I just have offline or one-on-one with people as well.


Andy Baldacci: I am curious, the segway from that, you said a lot of the agencies and consultants that are reaching out to you aren’t a good fit. Who is a good fit for working with you?


Jake Jorgovan:



I’m actually expanding the tiers of that right now. For people that are wanting to work with me in a one-on-one consulting manner, basically the base price for actually starting to work with me in an ongoing retainer where I’m actually doing any sort of hands on implementation, is typically around three grand a month with a actual commission. It’s not something that very small agencies can typically afford, so typically it’s a lot of other established agencies or companies that are very profitable. I even have some solo consultants who are just earning a lot of money and needing my help for all the assistance on the marketing and the sales sides of things.








I am introducing into it also a tier of actual coaching offerings where I’m actually doing more just helping people decide the tactics, helping them to figure out the strategy, just basically giving them access to everything I’ve learned in an ongoing way but where I’m just not hands on doing the work for them, but I’m actually just helping them figure out what the right steps are, answer their questions, outreach their messaging, whatever it is that they need help with, that’s where I’m starting to enter in that offering as well.


Andy Baldacci: The book sort of fits in at the bottom of the product ladder as a way to go really wide and help as many different agencies, consultants at whatever plan of their business, help them win more dream clients. Is that accurate?


Jake Jorgovan:



Yeah. Again, one of the things I just love about writing content and one of the things that’s inspired me since I was a young kid is just that I love creating media that creates a positive impact on other people’s lives. The book, if it leads to work and business that’s awesome, but if people take it, they learn from it and it helps them in their business and in their journey, then that’s a huge win for me as well and excites me.


Andy Baldacci: Awesome. Where can listeners go to follow the progress of this book, to hear when it’s going to be out there?


Jake Jorgovan:


If you go to winyourdreamclients.com, it’s a simple landing page up there right now, but it will grow. If you sign up now for email updates, you’ll actually get a free digital copy of the book whenever it comes out. Then you can also follow my blogging, podcasting, everything at jake-jorgavan.com which is where I put out all of my ongoing content. I have the Working Without Pants podcast and that’s my main hub for everything else.


Andy Baldacci:


Awesome, and before you say goodbye, I do want to ask a few rapid fire questions because while you ask everyone where they get their clients, there’s a few questions that I just personally enjoy asking people. The first one is just what do you currently spend too much time doing?


Jake Jorgovan:



What do I spend too much time doing? Probably just pittling about between tasks, and there’s some points where I just find myself looking at that task that I really don’t want to do and I just detract myself with something not to do it. I literally decided this morning I’m doing a month of cold showers again to get myself mentally in the space of powering through that, and not deterring myself from things that I’m not super excited to do.


Andy Baldacci:



It’s funny because I did the cold showers a couple of years ago and it seems crazy. Honestly I’m not sure if it’s placebo or whatever it is, but its just the idea that if you can force yourself to do something that is no fun at all, then you can do that with other things that come up in the day. You can keep building up your willpower so that you can get those tasks done. I’m curious to see how it goes for you this time around. On the other side of the coin though, what do you not spend enough time doing?


Jake Jorgovan:







I would say one of the big things that I’ve now been starting to try to figure out how to get this more into an actual flow, but for me just studying mindfulness and just practicing being more present, meditation, things along those lines. It’s something that I’ve done sporadically, but I’ve never been able to turn into a full habit, and so I’m now trying to introduce that into my morning routine and figure out a way to make that a regular part of my life. I found that that increases not just productivity and everything, but also just general happiness and satisfaction with everything. That’s the one thing that I’m probably needing to put a little more time and energy into.


Andy Baldacci: Then the last one is just what will the next year look like for you?


Jake Jorgovan:









This next year, the goals that I have I mentioned earlier is, to grow up to 125,000 of personal income and 225 at least of revenue. For me what that will look like is probably having about five clients at around an average of 3250 dollars a month. Within that I also want to pull in this another tier of these coaching clients that I’m working with, to begin to help them out as well. Hopefully at the points with this also by the end of the year, to have the full book complete and published and out there as well. Just really building myself up as a thought leader, getting a lot more stable and just keeping the business a lot more simple. Like you said, last year I got it scaled up super crazy and big and it got out of control, and so this year the goal is to stay focused, keep it simple and just accomplish what those goals that I’ve set out for.


Andy Baldacci:





Awesome. Jake, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. You shared a ton with us. I know we could keep talking for a while longer, but we do need to wrap up. Honestly, we covered a lot in there. We’re going to get it all linked up in the show notes for people. If you want to check out the book, just head to winyourdreamclients.com, and to see what Jake is up to, you can go to jake-jorgavan.com. Thanks again for coming on the show Jake, it was a lot of fun.


Jake Jorgovan: Thanks for having me on Andy.


Want to learn more about Jake?

Go to winyourdreamclients.com. It’s a simple landing page up there right now, but it will grow. If you sign up now for email updates, you’ll get a free digital copy of Jake’s book when it comes out. You can also follow Jake’s blogging at jake-jorgovan.com and his podcast, Working Without Pants.

Resources mentioned